The release of SPORE makes me want to invest in a new PC for my home. I haven't upgraded desktop hardware in quite a while and it is really starting to show. I dislike playing games on my laptop so I have effectively quite playing PC games. Overall that has been fine because I have been very pleased with the options available to me through both my XBOX 360 and my Wii. However, SPORE has piqued my interest. I have traditionally not been interested in simulation style games, but this one seems different. I also am aware of the "intelligent design" aspect of the game although if you have payed attention to some of the creations that have resulted from the SPORE Creature Creator I think using the word "intelligent" may be pushing it just a bit. This post, however, isn't really about video games, or building PCs or even a debate about ID so let's move on shall we?
Listening to other people talk about SPORE has gotten me thinking about the vastness of the universe. By most accounts the universe is large on a scale that is difficult for the human mind to comprehend. I find it impossible to express in words how small and insignificant a single human life really is when compared to what we accept as known existence. Given that the universe is vast beyond measure, I find it completely impossible to accept the assertion that life only exists on one small planet orbiting a completely unremarkable star in a tiny corner of one of an unestimatable number of galaxies in a likely infinite universe. Now, I will admit most of the size of the universe is derived through theoretical astrophysics, but let's assume one of two possibilities is correct:
1. The universe is amazingly vast and possibly infite in size.
or
2. Some extremely powerful being has created one hell of an illusion and the universe isn't as big as we think.
While it is certainly possible some omnipotent being (god or otherwise) created this reality solely for the us, humanity, I find it unlikely. I am am certiainly a man of very limited intelligence and maybe I am just incapable of seeing the bigger picture but why create such a thing as the universe for only one species to experience? It certainly does seem like an awful waste of space.
So, let's, just for the sake of argument, assume that option number 1 is true. Now, given that the universe is huge, isn't it EXTREMELY unlikely that life only exists on one planet? We don't even have to assume that the universe is infinite to come to that conclusion, just really, really big. This is the idiot's (I'm the idiot FYI) introduction to the Drake Equation. The best way I can explain the equation is that it is a mathematical theory used to describe the possible number of intelligent civilization which humanity might be able to encounter. Of course the equation is completely conjecture but it is useful in one way. Even taking an extremely conservative approach, mathematically the odds are pretty good that there is other intelligent life in the universe. Simply put, the universe is just too big and there is too much stuff in it for humans to be the lone intelligent species.
Accepting this does not force one to reject belief in a omnipotent being or creator but it does call into question the idea that humanity is somehow the "favorite son". I think that realization alone invalidates most terrestrial religions considering how many have humanity as the ultimate result of creation. If Marvin the Martian was to come down and address the world from the National Mall in Washington how would that force theists to re-evaluate their position?
What I am getting at is that it seems the height of hubris and self-importance to think that in the vastness that is the known universe humanity is the ultimate form of mortal intelligence. It is a comforting thought but completely illogical. I also believe this kind of thinking severely limits the ability of humanity to reach its potential. So many people willingly and happily box in their minds which makes it disheartening to think about what we could have accomplished by now if only we could free our minds from the tyranny of religion.
There's so much out there to be discovered. How about we get to it?
Listening to other people talk about SPORE has gotten me thinking about the vastness of the universe. By most accounts the universe is large on a scale that is difficult for the human mind to comprehend. I find it impossible to express in words how small and insignificant a single human life really is when compared to what we accept as known existence. Given that the universe is vast beyond measure, I find it completely impossible to accept the assertion that life only exists on one small planet orbiting a completely unremarkable star in a tiny corner of one of an unestimatable number of galaxies in a likely infinite universe. Now, I will admit most of the size of the universe is derived through theoretical astrophysics, but let's assume one of two possibilities is correct:
1. The universe is amazingly vast and possibly infite in size.
or
2. Some extremely powerful being has created one hell of an illusion and the universe isn't as big as we think.
While it is certainly possible some omnipotent being (god or otherwise) created this reality solely for the us, humanity, I find it unlikely. I am am certiainly a man of very limited intelligence and maybe I am just incapable of seeing the bigger picture but why create such a thing as the universe for only one species to experience? It certainly does seem like an awful waste of space.
So, let's, just for the sake of argument, assume that option number 1 is true. Now, given that the universe is huge, isn't it EXTREMELY unlikely that life only exists on one planet? We don't even have to assume that the universe is infinite to come to that conclusion, just really, really big. This is the idiot's (I'm the idiot FYI) introduction to the Drake Equation. The best way I can explain the equation is that it is a mathematical theory used to describe the possible number of intelligent civilization which humanity might be able to encounter. Of course the equation is completely conjecture but it is useful in one way. Even taking an extremely conservative approach, mathematically the odds are pretty good that there is other intelligent life in the universe. Simply put, the universe is just too big and there is too much stuff in it for humans to be the lone intelligent species.
Accepting this does not force one to reject belief in a omnipotent being or creator but it does call into question the idea that humanity is somehow the "favorite son". I think that realization alone invalidates most terrestrial religions considering how many have humanity as the ultimate result of creation. If Marvin the Martian was to come down and address the world from the National Mall in Washington how would that force theists to re-evaluate their position?
What I am getting at is that it seems the height of hubris and self-importance to think that in the vastness that is the known universe humanity is the ultimate form of mortal intelligence. It is a comforting thought but completely illogical. I also believe this kind of thinking severely limits the ability of humanity to reach its potential. So many people willingly and happily box in their minds which makes it disheartening to think about what we could have accomplished by now if only we could free our minds from the tyranny of religion.
There's so much out there to be discovered. How about we get to it?
I, as a theist, have no problem thinking that there is other life out there. Sometimes I'm a little disappointed that it's probably so far away (on account of the infinite size of the ever expanding universe) that we could never get to it. But then I think, "Well, maybe it could get to us!" And then I feel better.
I don't understand how the two opinions are exclusive. I mean, are they? Or are we both being curious on the same path? I just don't see how the idea that an omnipotent creator created a whole big bunch of stuff, not just us, is threatening to theists.
Also, dude, you do not want Spore. It has the most fucked-up DRM ever (scroll down to the customer reviews). The premise is intriguing, but if I have to pay that much money for that limited a rental, it'd need to give me hourly orgasms or something.
I have read quite a bit about the DRM and it is probably the main reason why I am not rushing out to build a new PC or to download it to my laptop. Sadly I think the future of video games is exactly this model. Gone will be the days of being able to boot a 10 year old game and play (assuming you still have the hardware).
Out of curiosity, and not out of sarcasm I swear, how are you able to accept the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe and still accept Christianity? The only way I see it as even a possibility is if you assume humanity is still 2nd only to god and thus other life must be not quite as intelligent as us. I'd like to hear the argument that would basically conclude that God created some form of life greater than man. It is very likely my lack of theological instruction puts me at a disadvantage in this discussion, but based on what I know accepting both Christianity and the possibility of intelligent, extraterrestrial life would be a stretch.
Now...what if God created man on another planet first??? Interesting point of discussion maybe.
Okay, let me try to answer this step by step and also say that it's not going to be a very good answer, maybe? Maybe.
How am I able to accept the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe and also Christianity?
Short answer: just cause I do.
What I don't get is the argument that life elsewhere would negate Christianity. If Jesus Christ died for everyone's sins (one of the founding principles, right?) then "everyone" includes aliens where ever we may find them. I also don't understand how aliens have to be more or less intelligent than us. Maybe the aliens are a race of super-smart highly evolved insects who've figured out how to convert matter to energy. Okay. Or they're less evolved than we are like maybe at an Australopithecus stage on their way to something else. Or maybe they're telepathic clouds. I don't know. I don't get dizzy making the leap from there to Architect of the Universe can make anything he wishes however he wishes. It's not blasphemous to wonder at things.
Is this sort of the same thing as how can people be Christian and still believe in evolution or thermodynamics or whatever scientific principle people are het up about currently?
So, your answer really boils down to the statement "just cause I do". Fine. I can't argue with personal revelation because clearly that is the only thing that can make a person believe something without any logical reason to do so. It is the same reason I can't argue with someone who says God talks to them and tells them the truth. I have absolutely no way to falsify that statement.
What I can ask is this:
"Ok, you have some kind of personAL reason to believe, but why should I, who doesn't have that experience, also believe the same thing?"
Funny thing is that this very concept is exactly what the movie the title of this post comes from was addressing. In Contact Dr. Arroway had no evidence that her experience was real and it thus mirrored her arguments against God earlier in the film. Therefore even though she knows it happened there is nothing she can do to make other people believe it. Except the 18 hours of static video recordings which presumably she didn't know about.
How does any of this apply to the argument/discussion at hand? Simply put, one person's faith is not enough to convince someone else of some truth. Truth must be provable outside of personal belief and revelation. It is therefore reasonable for me to say I can not accept your answer of "just cause I do".
So, what reasoning shows that Christianity (not just theism) allows for extraterrestrial life of equal or greater intelligence to man?
Convincing you why you should and me telling you why I do are two different things, right? Are we changing tracks halfway or did I start out thinking we were talking about something else?
I think the reasoning that lets Christians accept that there is intelligent extraterrestrial life of any kind is the same reasoning that lets them have free will while understanding that God knows each part of them and their every action, past, present, or future. It seems to be a contradiction, right? If God knows you down to what you're going to have for lunch on a Tuesday in six weeks, how do you have free will? God, as the author of time, exists outside it. He knows every moment of eternity, all at once. (C.S. Lewis said this much better than I in Mere Christianity.) So as the author of life, he knows every atom of it everywhere.
Are Christians supposed to be intimidated or upset by the idea that there could be life other places? That was more evolved or intelligent than them?
The difference is that I can profess a belief in the FSM but that doesn't make it true. In order for an idea to be credible there has to be something that would make an outside observer come to the same conclusion. More importantly though, some religions, Christianity in particular, feel that converting the non believer is an important part of the faith. Therefore I believe it is of extreme importance to be able to convince someone that what you believe is true without resorting to personal revelation. In the interest of full disclosure, however, I must admit that I am not a theology student of any kind and I am open to being extremely wrong about this point.
And since it seems we have jumped down the rabbit hole, my fault entirely, let's address the part about God's omnipotence. God knows all that ever was and will be. Why then would he need to create a life form, give it rules and watch while that creation breaks those rules and then punish the creation for it? What's the point? Why create them in the first place? Acceptable answers will not include statements such as "God works in mysterious ways" and "God's reasons are his own". Another possible conclusion is that God is not omnipotent and did not foresee mankind's disobedience but to accept that is to reject the very foundation of God in the Christian sense.
Blah...blah...blah...back to the original point. Does the existence of extraterrestrial life create problems for religion?
I think it is much easier to incorporate life into the Christian ideology if that life is not intelligent. Intelligent life poses problems not the least of which would be explaining how man could be inferior to some other race and still be created in the image of God.
So, how about this...Tomorrow a spaceship lands on the National Mall (I am nothing if not patriotic) and out steps aliens and lets make it easy and describe them as non-humaniod. They are able to communicate and through their advanced technology are able to cure cancer, HIV, and male pattern baldness almost instantly. They then proceed to clean all of Earth's polluted water supply, air, and soil as well as give us the secret to inexhaustible energy and unlimited space travel. Obviously they are more advanced than us in every way and oddly enough are not religious. Would you question your faith or accept it as God's will? (Basically this is a flowery way of asking the question "What would make you question your faith?")
On a side note, I still believe your thoughts, at least expressed on the internets, are much more deistic than they are Christian. Are you sure you never looked into deism?
Tomorrow a spaceship lands and all that stuff happens? Thanks, Aliens! I'd accept it as God's will. I accept choice parking spaces as God's will. I don't know what could rock me so abruptly and fundamentally that I question my faith. I'm sure there is some thing, but I don't care to imagine it.
As for Christianity requiring inferior intelligence to believe that man is create in God's image, how does that work? If God created the universe, and part of that was making man in his image, what if God looks like the universe and we're only part of Him? And cats are made in his image? And mountains? And pulsars? And the telepathic cloud people of a few comments back, right? God is everything. Everything is God. I feel like singing Kumbaya. Or however you spell it.
Sometimes I wonder if you've met any Christians who weren't really angry Baptists with humongous shoulder-chips. I'm not a Deist, I can assure you. I'm a Christian, what would probably be referred to as "non-denominational Charismatic." And I wouldn't ever ask you to rationally prove your belief in the FSM. I mean, that's why it's a belief, right? If it could be reasoned out, it would be your fact in the FSM.
Sorry to give you the impression that I am some kind of Christian hater and militant atheist because I am most certainly not. I get along well with most people that bother to engage me in conversation. I think I have said it before, but most of my friends are Christian (how could they not be living in the south right?) including my long time best friend and best man who is extremely religious. What I think you are picking up on is my tendency to debate until I am blue in the face. Let me tell you it drives my wife freaking nuts.
What provokes my ire (usually because I provoked someone first...this post perhaps?) is unquestioned beliefs. Honestly I don't understand how anyone can accept something as true without seriously questioning why they accept it as such. I provoke people with those beliefs because I think they are being intellectually lazy. Now, I am not speaking to you directly (or anyone specifically that reads this blog), just in general I find that the religious are unable or unwilling to ask themselves why they believe what they believe. They take what their parents, ministers, etc. have told them as truth and then spit it back at the world as fact. Again living where we live that kind of rhetoric is very prevalent and I will admit that my community has certainly colored my opinion of religion.
The only thing I really wish I could inspire is a questioning mind. If you question your faith and come back to your original conclusion then fine. I still think you are misguided and you think I am destined for an eternity of suffering, but we can still be friends. We can go on vacation together, play poker together, allow our children to share play dates together, participate in community organizations together, and generally act like civil human beings while enjoying each others company. In fact we can probably have interesting discussions about faith (although in the end nothing will likely change). Now, if you are the type of person that believes it is your life's duty to "bring me to Christ" but can not explain your own faith then we might not get along too well. Sadly I seem to meet a lot of those kind of people in my travels.
I would like to know what someone of a more fundamentalist bent would think about the "life on Mars" question as well as a devout Catholic. I can only assume I turned off those people years ago.
Jeff, here is an article that may give you a little insight on the Catholic view.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-566580/Heavens-God-created-life-planets-says-Vatican.html
The pope and his chief astronomer accept that their could be life on other planets. We are all God's creatures ... even life on other planets, according to the Vatican. Pope Benedict XVI's official astronomer, Father Jose Funes said that the possibility of life on other planets could not be ignored. Father Funes has been head of the Vatican's Observatory for two years after the Pope sacked Father George Coyne when the disagreed about the theory of evolution. Father Funes gave an interview with the Vatican's official newspaper L'Osservatore Romano headlined:"ET is my brother." When asked about life on other galaxies Father Funes said: "In my opinion this possibility exists. Astronomers believe that the universe is formed of hundreds of millions of galaxies and in these are hundreds of millions of stars. Many of these or all of them could contain planets. So how can we exclude that developed life cannot be elsewhere? It's possible to believe in God and extra terrestrials without bringing into question our own faith." There is a branch of astronomy, astro biology, that looks specifically at this question and has made significant advances in recent years. Numerous creatures exist on the earth, similarly intelligent life created by God could exist elsewhere. One of God's creatures? If there is life on other planets they are part of God's plan. "This cannot contradict with our faith because we cannot put limits on the creativity of God. St Francis spoke of brother earth and sister earth so why cannot we speak of brother extra terrestrial? It would all still be part of Creation." Father Funes added: "If this intelligent life does exist it is possible that they may well not need redemption (saving) that could well be at one with their Creator." When asked what if ET was a sinner Father Junes replied: "Christ died once and for all for our sins. It was once and unrepeatable so I'm sure that they will have God's mercy as well as Man." Pope Benedict favours intelligent design, which advances the view that God directs the process of evolution, over Charles Darwin's original theory which holds that species evolve through the random, unplanned processes and survival of the fittest.
So basically the Vatican's stance is:
If there is extraterrestrial life then it is all in God's plan.
Yeah...Why does that not surprise me. Saying otherwise would be sacrilege because there can not be anything outside of God's creation. Nice way of not saying anything.
Keep in mind that the Vatican also once insisted that the sun revolved around the earth and proceeded to put anyone that disagreed up against the Inquisition.
I think the church has realized it has to be open to new discoveries and thus has resorted to a blanket statement in which anything and everything is covered by "God's Will". It is a better stance than how things were handled during the Inquisition.
Also keep in mind when this statement was made. I believe it came out on the cusp of the Phoenix Lander's discover of water on Mars. To me it reads like this:
"Hey, ummmm...yeah, if you guys discover something up there God created it ok? Remember we told you."
It was a preemptive strike from the church to cover its ass just in case something really special turned up.